Curse

JR · Oct 18, 2010, 03:09 PM // 15:09

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ninja Ninja

Unless you turn every match into a pve PuG where you have to teach the team that just wants to leeroy to play to the objectives than pvp will be organized and discriminate.

There will be a lot of people looking for a guild when the game releases. Some of them will be experienced, some of them wont. If there is no easy way to quantify that experience then it is more likely to be evenly distributed, having greater benefit. It's that simple.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ninja Ninja

Also whats stopping people in gw2 from using you HoM calculator as a form of resume to get entry into a pvp guild like how you need high ranks now.

Using the HoM calculator as a qualifier to get into a PvP guild?

Hahahahahaha.

Kattar · Oct 18, 2010, 03:11 PM // 15:11

Quote:

Originally Posted by JR

Using the HoM calculator as a qualifier to get into a PvP guild?

No really. Ensign applied to be in my guild. He only had 2/50 so we rejected him.

Ninja Ninja · Oct 18, 2010, 03:15 PM // 15:15

Quote:

Originally Posted by JR

There will be a lot of people looking for a guild when the game releases. Some of them will be experienced, some of them wont. If there is no easy way to quantify that experience then it is more likely to be evenly distributed, having greater benefit. It's that simple.

Guild looking for gwamm and champion of the gods.

JR · Oct 18, 2010, 03:18 PM // 15:18

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ninja Ninja

Guild looking for gwamm and champion of the gods.

Neither of those things have any bearing on PvP at all. Zero. In fact, I'd be tempted to discriminate against anyone with GWAMM and Champion of the Gods, for wasting time when they should have been PvPing.

Ninja Ninja · Oct 18, 2010, 03:23 PM // 15:23

Quote:

Originally Posted by JR

Neither of those things have any bearing on PvP at all. Zero. In fact, I'd be tempted to discriminate against anyone with GWAMM and Champion of the Gods, for wasting time when they should have been PvPing.

Well if you want to be pvp specific like I said the HoM calculator will handle that, its not much of a far shot when people in gw1 already have guild requirements of being a r3 gladiator or a r6 hero and in order to get an achievement in the HoM you need r3 glad and r6 hero. So people do a quick check by searching your name to see if you have the achievements. Simple.

JR · Oct 18, 2010, 03:29 PM // 15:29

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ninja Ninja

Well if you want to be pvp specific like I said the HoM calculator will handle that, its not much of a far shot when people in gw1 already have guild requirements of being a r3 gladiator or a r6 hero and in order to get an achievement in the HoM you need r3 glad and r6 hero. So people do a quick check by searching your name to see if you have the achievements. Simple.

Yet many of the older or more dedicated PvP players probably wont bother with the HoM at all, because it's just trivial, shiny PvE loot. Many may even lack the capacity to get to it.

This line of conversation really is quite futile.

Ninja Ninja · Oct 18, 2010, 03:36 PM // 15:36

Quote:

Originally Posted by JR

Yet many of the older or more dedicated PvP players probably wont bother with the HoM at all, because it's just trivial, shiny PvE loot. Many may even lack the capacity to get to it.

This line of conversation really is quite futile.

So in the end it serves as a form of proof, by all means you could take someones word on it and be left with doubt. The dedicated pvp players will probably associate with other dedicated pvp players anyways giving them credibility when the time comes.

doomfodder · Oct 18, 2010, 03:49 PM // 15:49

Quote:

Originally Posted by JR

Yet many of the older or more dedicated PvP players probably wont bother with the HoM at all, because it's just trivial, shiny PvE loot. Many may even lack the capacity to get to it.

This line of conversation really is quite futile.

Admittedly, the HoM "rewards" can be percieved as valueless. However, the POINT is that they ARE offered.

The intrisic desire for "old time" PvP players or "players new to" PvP CAN be stimulated via incentives provided by ANET. Everyone remember when the "PvP venue" named JQ was a ghost town? ANET created incentive to play that venue by increasing rewards. Of course those rewards were not only associated with PvP, but the point is that ANET can influence a segment of the GW player base to play certain areas of the game - like other PvP. They only need to choose those incentives (market testing/survey) and implement the "rewards". If you build it, people will come...

The crux of the OP is that it's clear that ANET would prefer the player base to focus on PvE. That's why the HoM only has ONE PvP title.

Off topic: Obviously anyone with enough in-game $ (PvP selling or PvE drops) can buy all the titles required for maxing HoM "rewards" (via buying runs, items, etc...) so that's really incidental to the way ANET structured the HoM "rewards". ANET allowed flexiblity in the structure so as to let players earn those rewards in multiple ways.

JR · Oct 18, 2010, 03:55 PM // 15:55

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ninja Ninja

So in the end it serves as a form of proof, by all means you could take someones word on it and be left with doubt. The dedicated pvp players will probably associate with other dedicated pvp players anyways giving them credibility when the time comes.

The number of people who bother to check an applicants HoM calculator to see if they have checked in any Guild Wars PvP titles, and give that any credence, will be minuscule.

The danger comes when you legitimize it. If ArenaNet carried over the PvP titles to Guild Wars 2 it would be akin to saying 'these are a relevant measure of skill', and it would become a common factor for discrimination. That's bad for two reasons:

1) They are only very, very loosely a measure of skill. The majority of people who farmed title points did so with cheesy builds that took zero skill. Competitive players didn't play for titles.

2) It would create an unhealthy division between experienced and inexperienced players. This causes stagnation, no good for anybody.

Quote:

Originally Posted by doomfodder

The crux of the OP is that it's clear that ANET would prefer the player base to focus on PvE. That's why the HoM only has ONE PvP title.

That's great, but I disagree. ArenaNet built a HoM catering to PvE players because there is very little (perhaps nothing) you can offer PvP players that isn't damaging to the game for reasons described above.

Killed u man · Oct 18, 2010, 04:01 PM // 16:01

Quote:

Originally Posted by JR

Yet many of the older or more dedicated PvP players probably wont bother with the HoM at all, because it's just trivial, shiny PvE loot. Many may even lack the capacity to get to it.

This line of conversation really is quite futile.

And are you hereby declaring the larger part of the community will use common sense?

Just recently the new way of telling someone is experience in UWSC is showing their stones, or rocks whatever. The system is completely ludicrous, yet it got implemented by the playerbase itself.

What's been said about using the HoM was way of indicating GW experience (PvP or not) seems a very real scenario. People, in general, are stupid, and they will use stupid methods to try to create guilds with the least amount of stupid people as possible (ironically).

And as also said before, you can look up the PvP titles from another player (no?). Many old-school players, probably like you yourself, won't even have the HoM filled, but all these "new" GW2 players won't know that, so for all they know HoM is an indication of being good at PvP.

As a matter of fact, when any new GW2 guild forms (consisting out of "new" players, ones who didn't play GW1), HoM would be the ONLY reference they have, and a fair amount will use it to see what kind of experience the player has.

Ninja Ninja · Oct 18, 2010, 04:18 PM // 16:18

Quote:

Originally Posted by JR

The number of people who bother to check an applicants HoM calculator to see if they have checked in any Guild Wars PvP titles, and give that any credence, will be minuscule.

Well since people already take the time to check titles now I'll disagree with you on that.

Quote:

Originally Posted by JR

The danger comes when you legitimize it. If ArenaNet carried over the PvP titles to Guild Wars 2 it would be akin to saying 'these are a relevant measure of skill', and it would become a common factor for discrimination. That's bad for two reasons:

1) They are only very, very loosely a measure of skill. The majority of people who farmed title points did so with cheesy builds that took zero skill. Competitive players didn't play for titles.

2) It would create an unhealthy division between experienced and inexperienced players. This causes stagnation, no good for anybody.

I see what you're saying but are you denying gw2 pvp won't eventually succumb to title discrimination and history will repeat itself, I don't take anets view on skill as law and the people objecting to the HoM reward structure don't either.

Quote:

Originally Posted by JR

That's great, but I disagree. ArenaNet built a HoM catering to PvE players because there is very little (perhaps nothing) you can offer PvP players with a system like that.

People seem to forget that before the pay-to-use Hall of heroes chest was made aka the zaishen chest, people went to the Hall of heroes chest for great weapons skins and rare ghostly mini but as time went on pve expanded and pvp stayed the same, that's what made it stagnant.

Calista Blackblood · Oct 18, 2010, 04:34 PM // 16:34

Quote:

Originally Posted by Killed u man

And are you hereby declaring the larger part of the community will use common sense?

Just recently the new way of telling someone is experience in UWSC is showing their stones, or rocks whatever. The system is completely ludicrous, yet it got implemented by the playerbase itself.

What's been said about using the HoM was way of indicating GW experience (PvP or not) seems a very real scenario. People, in general, are stupid, and they will use stupid methods to try to create guilds with the least amount of stupid people as possible (ironically).

And as also said before, you can look up the PvP titles from another player (no?). Many old-school players, probably like you yourself, won't even have the HoM filled, but all these "new" GW2 players won't know that, so for all they know HoM is an indication of being good at PvP.

As a matter of fact, when any new GW2 guild forms (consisting out of "new" players, ones who didn't play GW1), HoM would be the ONLY reference they have, and a fair amount will use it to see what kind of experience the player has.

I think the guild community moreso will divide itself into groups similar to GW1.

1: Joe Average who doesn't join a guild

2:The average happy go lucky PvE guild with no alliance

3:The en-mass alliances with a mixture of everything

4:The high end(as such)PvE alliances similar to a lot of the title hunting/speedclear/elite area guilds in existence.

5:The 50/50 PvE alliances intertwined with PvP guilds which go hand in hand

6: The GvG only guilds

7:The HA only guilds

8: Mixed PvP interest guilds

I can really only see any sort of /HOM <player name> use from 4 onwards so there is still plenty of room for Average Joe to find a guild and fit in. But where you have titles you will have discrimination,it's a sad fact and has even been happening in PvE since NF+EOTN were released.

PvEr's unknowingly discriminate against PvP players who have low ranks(asuran,norn,kurzick,LB,Vanguard) because they play primarily PvP and in the same instance PvPr's imo have every right to reject the A/any narutards of the PvE world for not having bambi or x PvP rank.

It will never end unless everyone is made equal but I can't think of any solution of making that possible without sh*tting all over everyone,So we might as well just get on with it..

IrishX · Oct 18, 2010, 04:38 PM // 16:38

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ninja Ninja

People seem to forget that before the pay-to-use Hall of heroes chest was made aka the zaishen chest, people went to the Hall of heroes chest for great weapons skins and rare ghostly mini but as time went on pve expanded and pvp stayed the same, that's what made it stagnant.

Actually, NF happened. Due to the flood of extremely overpowered offensive and defensive skills that Anet did not fix fast enough, many high end players left. The lack of another world championship and three fun seasons in a row did not help matters, either.

Also, 6v6 Tombs.

I'm not saying that you are completely incorrect, but the release of NF was most likely a larger detriment to the PvP community than the Zaishen chest (which came along quite a bit later).

Vazze · Oct 18, 2010, 04:50 PM // 16:50

Quote:

Originally Posted by JR

1) They are only very, very loosely a measure of skill. The majority of people who farmed title points did so with cheesy builds that took zero skill. Competitive players didn't play for titles.

2) It would create an unhealthy division between experienced and inexperienced players. This causes stagnation, no good for anybody.

1) You are assuming that gw2 will have a better system to measure "skill", I seriously doubt that, but it does not matter at this point because we don't know, in fact we know very little about gw2 pvp.

2) ??? Any division between skilled and unskilled players is healthy. If you meant gw1 experience than that will happen only if the new system is as bad as the old one. If it is better, nobody would bother to look at your gw1 accomplishments, no matter what that is.

Any kind of "connect" between gw1 and 2 is primarily a marketing tool to pull in the old players into gw2. What bothers me is that anet does not feel the need to do that with the pvp community.

JR · Oct 18, 2010, 04:59 PM // 16:59

Quote:

Originally Posted by Vazze

You are assuming that gw2 will have a better system to measure "skill", I seriously doubt that, but it does not matter at this point because we don't know, in fact we know very little about gw2 pvp.

I'm assuming that GW2 will have a much better system for pretty much anything, given that this is ArenaNet's second attempt.

Even if it doesn't, we'll always have the standard methods of measuring a player in a competitive game: Reputation and past performance. That, for many reasons would be far preferable to the current silly, arbitrary, grind friendly title system.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Vazze

??? Any division between skilled and unskilled players is healthy.

Well, no, it's not.

Ninja Ninja · Oct 18, 2010, 05:08 PM // 17:08

Quote:

Originally Posted by IrishX

Actually, NF happened. Due to the flood of extremely overpowered offensive and defensive skills that Anet did not fix fast enough, many high end players left. The lack of another world championship and three fun seasons in a row did not help matters, either.

Also, 6v6 Tombs.

I'm not saying that you are completely incorrect, but the release of NF was most likely a larger detriment to the PvP community than the Zaishen chest (which came along quite a bit later).

Oh I wasn't saying the zaishen chest was the largest detriment, I was responding to his post regarding there was nothing the HoM could reward a pvp player with.
Look based rewards do matter to pvp players, if only the reward point system was better so when you buy an armor set it stays unlocked, instead of resorting to repurchasing weapons/armor.

JR · Oct 18, 2010, 06:12 PM // 18:12

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ninja Ninja

Look based rewards do matter to pvp players, if only the reward point system was better so when you buy an armor set it stays unlocked, instead of resorting to repurchasing weapons/armor.

Aesthetics mean very little to competitive players. It's a nice little bonus to be able to unlock some cool looking gear perhaps, but there are many far more important factors.

ilr · Oct 18, 2010, 06:16 PM // 18:16

Quote:

Originally Posted by JR

So what do they do? Should they go to HA and try to find a PuG? Good luck with that. Are they down to trying to grind win-streaks in RA? Do they have to find a new guild that GvGs and by some miracle rack up champ points?

You can't just twist peoples arm to get them into PvP, and hope somehow they stick. They will end up having a deeply unpleasant experience trying to get anywhere, and it will only cement their dislike for the format. This game is simply not set up for casual PvP.

Where's the "Thank You" button? Cuz this forum needs one for posts like this.
I love PvP, I've spent more time PvP'ing in other games than I've spent PvE'ing in this one. But this post encapsulates the biggest reasons I'll never go beyond a few LuLz-outings in JQ/FA.**

** ...though I'll admit I did try and did enjoy the mental-exercise of Codex... with the reverse edge that I absolutely hated the matching system.

fortior · Oct 18, 2010, 06:39 PM // 18:39

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ninja Ninja

Well since people already take the time to check titles now I'll disagree with you on that.

That's because those titles are from the game you're playing right now. Nobody will care about your achievements in a game vastly different (only linked in name) that came out over 5 years ago.

Derp derp derp. You could have made that logical leap yourself, you know?

Ninja Ninja · Oct 18, 2010, 07:03 PM // 19:03

Quote:

Originally Posted by fortior

That's because those titles are from the game you're playing right now. Nobody will care about your achievements in a game vastly different (only linked in name) that came out over 5 years ago.

Were talking about organized pvp, its either going to stay the same or become unorganized and since guilds with gwamm and 50/50 are going to happen its not a long shot, pvp guilds basing performance on you're past gw1 experiences during the start of gw2 is a definite.

Quote:

Originally Posted by fortior

Derp derp derp

lol I'll let you get back to that.